David Oakes interview explores Juan Borgias' downfall

As Showtime’s The Borgias nears its second season finale, I talked with David Oakes on June 11 about his character, Juan Borgia, and the direction the show might take after Juan’s final scene in ‘World of Wonders’ (Season 2, Episode 9).

Athough Oakes has a reputation for playing the bad guy back from his days as William Hamleigh in Pillars of the Earth, my impression when I talked to Oakes is what a nice guy he is. Oakes doesn't see Juan as the villain and often empathizes with Juan who is stigmatized as the black sheep of the Borgia family, especially by Juan’s siblings, Lucrezia and Cesare. While Juan’s life ends tragically on The Borgias, it was a dream role for David Oakes.

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What were you thoughts on your final scene? Was it as intense as you thought it’d be?
It was the last thing that was shot. It was the penultimate day of shooting. It was a nice thing to die when you died and not have to come back to work the next day after being thrown off a bridge. It was kind of like his confession scene. It was the previous three episodes worth of gangrene, syphilis, opium addiction, cigars, horse riding and everything coming to a head and just exploding. It was great fun to do. I think Francois liked it immensely too because he didn’t have to learn any lines. He just had to stab me which was fine at least when he got the safety pad that I was wearing. He kept missing me now and then and stabbing me in the stomach. He needs to get some fight training at some point. (Laughs)


Did you know Juan was going to die at the beginning of the season?
I knew I was going to die. I knew that was going to happen. I didn’t know when. At one stage they were toying with killing me off in Episode 3. The next rumor I heard was Episode 5, then it got to Episode 7. I definitely was going to die episode in Episode 7 they told me. Then I had Episode 10, then I had Episode 9 and then I thought I was going to make it to the third season, but then I was knifed. It’s a funny thing, scripts come out and you only find out piece by piece.

I didn’t know it’d be quite so fun to build up to my death. I didn’t know the gangrene and the syphilis and the opium would all come into play. It was a gift of a part as an actor really. I think while everyone is falling in love or getting a bit angry or coping with cathedrals falling down or whatever I had an amazing personal journey to go on with that character and hopefully I presented it with a sense and reality and hopefully you will feel a bit sorry for the guy. I don’t think he’s useless. Everyone says he’s a useless coward. He’s just placed in some sh*t situations. I mean he would have won Forli. He would have kicked ass at Forli if his character had let him know the other Sforza was coming to cut him down from the rear.

Cesare kind of set him up on that because he didn’t warn him.
Yeah! I mean what’s his beef? He makes me lose a war, then he blames it all on me and then he kills me, but I’m not entirely sure why he kills me.

I think out of jealousy sometimes.
Huge jealousy. I always ridiculed him when we were filming because there’s at least two situations, one in Episode 8 and one in Episode 9 where for no reason Cesare goes, “Ten more sons,” just to wind him up like proper little brothers do and push their buttons and make them go crazy. I just kept telling him, “None of them [the fans] will like your character because he’s just such a bitch.” It was quite nice to do that because everyone knows Juan is a useless cowardy worm so it was quite nice to get Francois worried the girls would stop liking him for a bit.

You know there a quite few women who like your character.
Well they’re all sick and wrong. (Laughs)

How was it like working with the cast?
It was great. The funny thing is by the second year you take it all for granted. I think for me personally I was most excited working with Gina McKee as Caterina Sforza. I remember watching her in so many stage productions over here (England) and films like Notting Hill. It’s a treat. It’s what actors dream and die for really. As you said you get to wear the armor and ride the horse for a job.

I was really pissed off when I started shooting Episode 8 because I wasn’t able to walk everywhere. At that point onwards I’m in a wheelchair or I got a stick or a crutch and felt restricted. There’s a reason why Juan starts in a wheelchair and switches to a crutch and then ends up with a walking stick, but quite often forgets his walking stick because I didn’t want the prop.

I was shocked at how quickly Juan’s downward spiral was. Do you think the Siege at Forli was the downfall for his character?
Yeah. I think there is the syphilis as well which he had before Forli. The one issue I’ve always had is I wanted to elongate certain sections. Every episode has so much stuff going on and so many great meetings whether it’s the fight between Juan and Cesare or Lucrezia meeting her different lovers or it’s the pope talking to different people about political machinations. I always wanted to have Juan in Spain. I wanted to have a month where I could go over with my own unit of shooting where he finds himself a wife, but that’s not to be.

Do you think Juan was different when he came back from Spain?
Neil [Jordan] was always keen on Juan coming back different and secure and grounded. That’s how I wanted to play it when he came back. I think the shock of Lucrezia actually manning up and trying to kill him had a huge effect as well. He’s growing and maturing, his pleasures were being taken away from him. He definitely was becoming an adult. Certainly there are moments in the second season where he manipulates other people in a similar the way they’ve been manipulating him. The scene between Jeremy and myself with the dagger is a last ditch frantic attempt at trying to win him over. It’s kinda successful in a weird way. He’s just a bit useless at that point.


Do you think Juan was genuine in the knife scene? Do you think he would have killed himself?
Yeah I think so. I think if there’s one aspect of Juan that never changes throughout both seasons is he always does what it true inside him whether it’s an attempted rape or trying to win a war. I also believe if Lucrezia hadn’t come over in the first season during the first war, he would have led all his troops into death. He’s not afraid of dying in that sense, he’s afraid of not being liked or loved and being left by his family. If Jeremy disowned him he would have done it. I don’t think he’s a coward in that sense. I don’t even think he’s that much a coward. It’s just his entire family, whether they know it or not, has been ganging up on him from the very beginning of the first season. What’s the problem with him? I think he’s lovely. I think he’s really kind and compassionate and cuddly.

Do you think Juan is jealous of Lucrezia’s and Cesare’s relationship?
Definitely. There’ a great little scene which we shot on the third from last day which is Juan in the opium den scene, looking up at the ceiling with the smoke everywhere where he says, “I think my brother and sister are having congress,” which is the first time anyone in the entire series. I mean the audience had been thinking that for awhile that something twisted was going on between them and the fact that Juan is aware of this and concerned by this is quite an interesting one. I don’t think he’s jealous of them being together. I think he’s jealous of not being a part of it as well. When he forgives Cesare at the end saying how they’re brothers and wants to be together, I think that’s genuine. That’s the first time you realize what he’s always wanted. He just wants to be a part of the family and at every turn they’ve not allowed him. They’ve always pushed him away which is a great a shame.


In Juan’s final scene, I thought there might have been some reconciliation between the two brothers.
It gets very close doesn’t it? It’s interesting that Juan’s attempt at relieving pain is through closeness and hugging and love. Cesare’s attempt to relieve pain is through murder and fratricide and that’s very interesting. It would have been quite nice to have seen where the character could have gone next, but I think what it certainly sets up is (God knows what will happen in Season Three) the downfall of the family. It will be a very different family without him. They will need different things to get annoyed by.

It would have been quite nice to have seen where the character could have gone next, but I think what it certainly sets up is (God knows what will happen in Season Three) the downfall of the family. It will be a very different family without him. They will need different things to get annoyed by.

When he forgives Cesare at the end saying how they’re brothers and wants to be together, I think that’s genuine.

It was great fun to do. I think Francois liked it immensely too because he didn’t have to learn any lines. He just had to stab me which was fine at least when he got the safety pad that I was wearing. He kept missing me now and then and stabbing me in the stomach. He needs to get some fight training at some point. (Laughs)

You know there a quite few women who like your character.
Well they’re all sick and wrong. (Laughs)

The one issue I’ve always had is I wanted to elongate certain sections. Every episode has so much stuff going on and so many great meetings whether it’s the fight between Juan and Cesare or Lucrezia meeting her different lovers or it’s the pope talking to different people about political machinations. I always wanted to have Juan in Spain. I wanted to have a month where I could go over with my own unit of shooting where he finds himself a wife, but that’s not to be.

It isn’t easy being Juan Borgia, especially when his own brother, Cesare, stabs him to death and throws him off a bridge on Showtime’s The Borgias. In part one of my interview with David Oakes on June 11, Oakes talks about how Juan just was looking for love even if it was in all the wrong places.

In the second part of this interview, Oakes talks about how he got the role of Juan and what it’s like working with Jeremy Irons. Oakes also mentioned what his next dream role would be. Hint: It includes wearing a cowboy hat or shooting in Hawaii.


Do you think your work in Pillars of the Earth led to getting the part of Juan?
I think it led to the role. I’m pretty certain in fact. I only met Neil [Jordan] only once and the only audition scene he asked me to read was the bit with me on the horse in Episode 3 of the first season where Juan’s just arrogant. So I think it was to see if I could do the petulant childish side of him. I think the fact I could play a psychotic rapist was taken for granted.

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I was watching bits of Pillars of the Earth recently and cutting together my show reel. It’s very interesting for me to see where I was with Pillars two years ago and the final scenes of this season in Episode 7, 8 and 9. I feel like I’ve certainly gotten better. I’m playing more with characters now and manipulating them in different ways which proved very exciting for me. I’ve really enjoyed it.


Do you think Juan is bothered by being a bastard or being called a bastard?
I think in the first season that definitely was his driving force, especially when you’ve got Theo, his potential real father there. I think in the second season, especially when he’s come back from Spain and he had his child, I think he’s come to grips with it. It’s that confrontation with Lucrezia where he does the Michael Jackson baby dangle, it’s then when he says to her, “We’re Borgia bastards,” and he’s accepted that. He knows that they all are. He is very secure in himself at that point I think.

Did you ever create a back story for Juan?
Not really other than the one that already exists. I think that was the great thing about playing a genuine character although we play a little fast and loose with some moments in history. During the season I definitely felt the lead up to the first season was pretty much accurate as it is in the history books. A great deal is known about Juan. I think that’s quite interesting, but I mostly took all the factual stuff I could find.

Now that you’re done with The Borgias, what’s next for you?
There are a couple of plays I’m going to be doing in England soon, but they’re not very long. I want to do a big TV series. I love having years of time to present a character across a long distance. I’m becoming less interested in playing smaller parts, not just because of the profile, but you don’t necessarily get the chance to play all those nuances across their existence. So it’d be nice to do a big series or a film or two. Who knows? I’m open to suggestions.

Do you have an ideal character you’d like to play? Do you want to keep playing the baddie?
I don’t know. Part of me wants to do a rom-com [romantic comedy], another one wants to play a cowboy, but I love playing the bad guys. They’re so much fun. I wouldn’t mind a rom-com, maybe something nice and fluffy, maybe in Hawaii.

Was there any filming location for the Siege at Forli?
No, that’s all pretend. That’s all constructed and it was built just for that. I think they left it up. I think they’re going try and use it for Season Three. I imagine Caterina and Benito Sforza will come back to play some significance in the third season. That was great fun. We literally spent a week in a field with this wonderful horse which we trained up for especially that scene. We bought it whilst we were out there. He’s a brilliant horse, so well trained.

You seem very comfortable horse riding. Do have a background in it?
I used to ride a bit as a kid, but over the three years when I’ve been out in Budapest, when I haven’t been filming, I’ve just gone horse riding. I love it. I’ve ridden a lot, but I’ve never had to do armed combat. I never jumped until I did The Borgias in the first season and jumping has been great fun. There’s nothing quite as exciting as that symbiotic link between man and beast.

I’d love to do some kind of extension of that. That’s why I’d like to do a Western. You’ve got Ronan [Vibert] (who played Giovanni Sforza). He just did the Hatfields and McCoys and in fact Sarah Parish, she played my mother in Pillars of the Earth, was in it as well. We were filming The Borgias so I couldn’t do it, but I was so jealous.

Do you have a favorite scene this season?
I think my favorite scene was with Jeremy and the dagger, partly because I was working with John Maybury. John pushed it quite big for the first four takes, really big performances, all very different because it was all the drugs, all opium. I’m sure when you play those takes back it’s like pantomime, like it’s really quite silly, but it’s the best bit of directing I think I experienced on the job. He went, “Okay take that all away and just try one really flat, really quiet,” and that’s the take they used for the close up on me which was take number five. And I think it’s great.

It’s a great cross section between myself and my performance being focused. You’ve got Jeremy feeding all the lines and giving a great performance behind camera and you’ve got John Maybury who allowed us to have the time and manipulated us in such a way that I think is really electric. I think from that moment on if you don’t have any sympathy for Juan your heart is dead and you’re holding too strongly on to his past mistakes and not letting him be forgiven because he’s very vulnerable in that scene.

What’s it like playing opposite of Jeremy Irons?
Me and Jeremy had great fun playing together. We both trained at the same drama school which part of me likes to think might be the reason that we approach characters in the same way. We quite often do big things. I think if you compare my and Jeremy’s style of acting to Francois’ acting (Francois is always quite still and contained, sort of brooding and moody) whereas Jeremy and I do quite large things.

The challenge then is to make them seem truthful which we may not always do, but we try to make it quite dynamic. I mean he’s the pope for Christ's sake and I’m this crazy, drug-addled disease-ridden entity so why wouldn’t they be massive characters? It’s really fun to play.

Sibling rivalry is huge on The Borgias. Do you have any siblings?
I do. I have an older sister, a half brother and a half sister, and a step brother and a step sister from a previous marriage, but one way or another I’ve always been quite independent. I’ve always gone as far away as I could. So when I went to university, I went to the other end the country. I went to Manchester and then when I went to drama school, I went to the other side of the country to Bristol. I get on really well with everybody. That’s always been my thing. I’ve always been nice to my family and to my siblings and hopefully my friends. If anyone has nasty things to say about me, I’m really sorry, but I didn’t mean to be horrible to you. With that rivalry with Francois, it’s all acting. We get on really well.

What has been the fans’ reception to Juan?
I felt very supported by the fans. It’s been great actually, even more so than with William [Hamleigh]. People have really gotten behind Juan. There are very few who hate him and the people who hate him kinda scare me. I don’t understand why they hate him strongly, but I feel very well supported which is lovely.

What do you think will happen on The Borgias now that Juan is out of the picture?
Who knows? It could be many things. It could be the Addams Family or it could be the Brady Bunch.